Ardour 2.0 - DAW na Linuxu (diskuse)

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[trekker.dk]

pre-fader inzertů

Proč z? Jinak souhlasím s příspěvkem výše... hezký článek.

[Xóža Hňabaj]

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Po Ctrl + Middle mouse btn. na fader/hotnotu efektu staci pohnout ovladacem na midi kontroleru, a toto se automaticky nabinduje.

Napriklad Behringer BCR2000 funguje bez latence na vanilla kernelu bezproblemove, a ve spojeni s ardour se da pouzivat i na live efektovani.

[s0]

supa počtení.

Jen pár postřehů k doplnění:

jacklab rt kernel je sice vyladěn k muzice, ale jsou tam dodrbané některé jiné věci. Např. detekce připojených médií (usb, cd, dvd), což třeba poněkud diskvalifikuje yast2 z instalace SW.

Instalace ardouru, speciálně verze 2 je opravdu pro labužníky. Měl jsem pocit, že jsem se navrátil do dob slávy "rpmfind". Nějak tomu chyběly gtkmm2 balíky (jacklab).

V těchto dnech si hraju s Qtractorem. Docela epesní a jednoduchá záležitost (až na absenci podpory VST, ale to prý časem bude).

Že bychom už měli v oblasti nahrávání na výběr? (ardour2, qtractor, wired) Ó, jak vzrušující doba ;)

Nedávno vyšel nový lmms a také nevypadá věru zle. Asi se na něj také juknu.

Proč proboha většina těchto SW zavádí vlastní grafický kabátek? Vždyť se na to víceméně nedá koukat.

[Ctirad Feřtr]

jacklab rt kernel je sice vyladěn k muzice, ale jsou tam dodrbané některé jiné věci. Např. detekce připojených médií (usb, cd, dvd),

Jak konkrétně? Nic takového nepozoruju. Respektive nepozoruju rozdíl mezi stroji s RT a normálním jádrem v tomto směru.

Instalace ardouru, speciálně verze 2 je opravdu pro labužníky.

To je spíš problém některých distribucí, ne? Já intaluju ardour přes emerge ardour (respektive před pár lety jsem ho takhle nainstaloval a teď už mi chodí jenom nové verze) a ničeho špatného jsem si nevšimnul.

Že bychom už měli v oblasti nahrávání na výběr? (ardour2, qtractor, wired) Ó, jak vzrušující doba ;)

No nevím. Wired moc na nahrávání není. Popravdě dodnes jsem nepřišel na to, k čemu vlastně je a co umí. Chtělo by to alespoň jeden demosong. Pokud to má být samohrajka ala reason, tak to mi tedy mnohem zajímavější (a hlavně funkční) přijde třeba Beast nebo PD (i když to je trochu z jiného soudku).

Qtractor se dost dobře nedá nazvat DAW i když na seznámení s jeho problematikou nebo jednoduché a intuitivní zaznamenání okamžitých nápadů je výborný.

Každopádně nevím, proč zrovna zmiňovat tyhle dvě. Existuje toho mnohonásobně víc. apps.linuxaudio.org napoví.

Proč proboha většina těchto SW zavádí vlastní grafický kabátek? Vždyť se na to víceméně nedá koukat.

Většina určitě ne. Když pominu zmíněný wired nebo PD, tak ostatní jsou normální GTK nebo QT aplikace.

[s0]

1) jacklab rt kernel mi zkrátka a prostě nespolupracuje s výměnnými médii. Navíc jsem včera objevil, že začal vyhazovat hromadu xrunů. Což je ale jiná pohádka.

2) ano, je to záležitost distra. Na druhou stranu spolu tedy moc nesouvisí jacklab rt kernel a gentoo ebuild pro ardour, že?

3) ano, Wired je divný. Qtractor je pro mne výtečný právě díky své jednoduchosti. Protože já dělám jednoduchou muziku. Prostě teď to u mne vypadá následovně: qjackctl, qtractor, hydrogen. A hromada CAPS ladspa pluginů. Víc, kromě kytary s externím předzesilovačem, mi netřeba. Opravdu na demo práci, která se v budoucnu často ani nepoužije, nechci studovat týdny všechny vlastnosti Ardouru.

4) Proč je pak i ten ardour obarven do černa? Ale je to nepodstatné.

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[clco]

prosím vás mam par dni ubuntu a v XP jsem požíval Cubase Le ktery jsem dostal k Zoom G21u, na zaznamenání nápadu super, stahl jsem si ardour, ale nějak nemohu najít kde nastavím USB zvukovku ze Zooma. V CUbase stačilo nastavit Device setup a VST input a bylo to nachystany, ak je to tady... už se k XP nechci vracet, ubuntu mě plně vyhovují, ale potřeboval bych v tom nahrávat kytarový nápady...tak jestli budete někdo tak hodnej a poradíte mi, budu moc rád, jinak si budu muset na nahrávání nainstalovat zpět wokna

[kavol]

přesnou odpověď na tvůj dotaz neznám, začal bych zjišťováním, zda tvůj systém vůbec tu zvukovku podporuje, nicméně poradím ti, že takovéto dotazy patří do poradny (odkaz na prvním místě menu pod titulkem ABCLINUXU při standarním rozvržení této stránky) a ne pod starý článek, neboť tady si toho všimne mnohem méně lidí

možná by taky nebylo od věci napsat odkud jsi, tyto věci se leckdy řeší líp osobně a třeba budeš mít štěstí, že potkáš nějakého muzikanta z okolí, který bude ochoten se zastavit

[adamschule85]

Very impressive post, have a good day.

 

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[Phokz]

Výborný článek, měl bych též zájem o počtení o hardware používaném linuxovými hudebníky.

[vencas]

+1. Ocenil bych taky přehled HW na trhu pro tyto účely (uvažuji o koupi USB zvukovky, která by dokázala nahrávat 8 nezávislých stop, ale moc ani nevim, kolik to stojí a hlavně jak to pod Linuxem šlape).

[Ctirad Feřtr]

USB na 8 nezávislých stop je dost špatný nápad (a kromě toho taková karta se snad ani nedělá). Pokud to nemůže být PCI (tam jsou dobře podporované karty například M-audio delta 1010 (LT), Echo Layla, RME multiface, případně s jistými omezeními E-mu 1616m). Z firewire toho běhá celkem velká část a ještě větší část toho pojede v dohledné době, ale ovladač je zatím dost experimantální, nicméně použitelný.

[vencas]

A vida, jsem rád že odpověděl někdo kdo tomu zřejmě rozumí víc než já! Můžete konkrétněji s těmi zařízeními na FireWire (notebook, takže PCI ne)? Díky.

[Ctirad Feřtr]

Záleží, co přesně potřebujete. Kolik vstupů, kolik výstupů, kolik digitálních rozhraní a jaká, jestli i mikrofonní předzesilovače nebo stačí linky. Pokud to má mít 8 analogových vstupů, tak už to taky nebude žádná láce, počítejte tak kolem 15 tisíc za nějaký entry level (pro srovnání PCI M-audio delta 1010LT přijde na nějakých 6kKč i když kvalitativně je to samozřejmě nižší třída, pro mnoho použití bohatě stačí). Kromě samotných zvukovek na FW existují i mixpulty s FW výstupem. Nedávno někdo reportoval funkčnost pultu Phonix Helix board 18 MkII, který za rozumné peníze nabízí hned 16 stop po FW. Samozřejmě nejde o žádný studiový highend ale dovedu si to představit třeba ve zkušebně nebo klubíku a vždycky při hraní k tomu jenom připojit notebook a odnést si záznam z jednotlivých vstupů k dalšímu zpracování.

Co se týče podpory FW karet v linuxu, jako odrazový můstek bych doporučil stránky projektu ffado ,který má za cíl vytvořit generický ovladač pro firewire karty a hlavně jeho mailinglisty. Je tam i tabulka HW, ale údaji v ní bych se moc neřídil. Například "not supported" je potřeba číst jako: "výrobce karty na nás kašle, takže pro nás jeho produkty nejsou priorita", nicméně fungovat klidně mohou. Většina FW zvukovek totiž používá standardizovaný protokol, takže není potřeba extra driver jako u PCI karet. Ale jak říkám, pro běžného uživatele, co nechce s ničím laborovat, to asi ještě není připravené.

Abych nezapomněl, karta do notebooku nemusí znamenat nutně Firewire, případně USB. Jsou i karty do cardbusu. To se týká třeba již zmíněné RME multiface, e-mu 1616m nebo starších kart Echo Layla/Gina/Mona (kvalitní, dobře podporované a dají se koupit za zajímavé peníze z druhé ruky). Navíc netrpí problémy karet na FW jako je háklivost na použitý čipset, vyšší latence a větší zatížení CPU.

[František]

Nemáte někdo zkušenost se zvukovkami EDIROL UA101 nebo UA1000 pod Linuxem? Podporují USB2 a podle papírových parametrů i testů jsou velmi dobré. Nenašel jsem ale téměř nic o jejich (ne)fungování v Linuxu.

[kavol]

to jsem si takhle kdysi podle papírových parametrů a testů pořídil Canon FS4000 ... a dodnes občas zjišťuju, že to byla blbost

[František]

Tož na filmový skener se stačilo zeptat, do toho vidim přece jenom víc (ale jen pod Widlema ) než do zvukovek pod Linuxem . Nebo mrknout na http://www.fotopruvodce.cz/fotoforum.phtml, teď jsou tam sice některá témata dost ustřelená, ale pořád se dá odtamtud dost informací vydolovat.

[Ctirad Feřtr]

O UA101 se tuším psalo něco v linux audio user listu (doporučuju projít archivy). Ten vyšší model nevím, ani jsem o něm nikde nečetl, že by to byl nějký extra kauf s dobrým poměrem cena výkon. Spíš bych se podíval na Focusrite, Presonus nebo třeba Motu traveller. Hodně zajímavě vypadá i Alesis IO|26, ale ten bohužel spadá zrovna do kategorie "unsupported" a zatím se mi ho nikde nepodařilo půjčit, abych zkusil, jestli nepůjde s generickým ovladačem.

[František]

Díky za nakopnutí směrem k Linux audio user listu. Super odkaz.

[kavol]

Navíc netrpí problémy karet na FW jako je háklivost na použitý čipset, vyšší latence a větší zatížení CPU.

MUHEHE ... promiň, ale tato hláška mi v threadu, kde rozmlouváš použití USB, přišla opravdu vtipná (jestliže FW karty mají v tomto směru "problémy", co bys potom musel říci o USB?) (čímž neříkám, že nemáš pravdu ... jenom ten kontext je cool )

[Ctirad Feřtr]

Navíc netrpí problémy karet na FW jako je háklivost na použitý čipset, vyšší latence a větší zatížení CPU.

MUHEHE ... promiň, ale tato hláška mi v threadu, kde rozmlouváš použití USB, přišla opravdu vtipná (jestliže FW karty mají v tomto směru "problémy", co bys potom musel říci o USB?)

O USB říkám hned na začátku, že to pro multikanál není dobrý nápad. FW je výrazně robustnější řešení, ale svoje mouchy má. Částečně je to dané principem (vyšší latence) a částečně blbou implementací mnohých FW čipsetů, která způsobuje lupání a kousání.

[kavol]

O USB říkám hned na začátku, že to pro multikanál není dobrý nápad.

jasně, ale je vtipný ten kontext, že důvody, pro které (mimojiné) zavrhnout USB, potom vyčteš i jeho "náhradě"

FW je výrazně robustnější řešení, ale svoje mouchy má.

hm, trošku OT - za největší mouchu považuju to, že je dražší, tudíž v lowendu se místo něj používá USB, tudíž FW se nevyrábí a neprodává v takovém objemu, což jej ještě relativně zdražuje, a vzniká pak jakýsi lock-in, kdy uživatel, který by byl ochoten koupit si nějaký ne-úplně-levný hardware na FW už není ochoten kvůli tomu jednomu kousku (když ostatní má na USB) kupovat ještě FW řadič (nebo třeba ani nemůže - notebooky), a raději poptává USB verzi

... ale to není ani tak chyba FW jako současné konzumní společnosti, kde se musí šetřit náklady za každou cenu (i když centíky za FW licence za to jistě hodně zodpovídají)

[Ctirad Feřtr]

O USB říkám hned na začátku, že to pro multikanál není dobrý nápad.

jasně, ale je vtipný ten kontext, že důvody, pro které (mimojiné) zavrhnout USB, potom vyčteš i jeho "náhradě"

USB má ale mnohem větší problémy než FW a pak ještě některé další. Na tom není nic vtipného, to je prostě fakt.

hm, trošku OT - za největší mouchu považuju to, že je dražší

Dražší asi nebude, vždyť FW je běžné i na deskách za 1500,-Kč. Spíš je celý problém v tom, že je to technologie konkurenční k microsoftímu USB a podle toho se k tomu výrobci PC chovají. FW rozhraní je takřka bez výjimky řešené dodatečným broukem lípnutým na PCI namísto, aby bylo samozřejmou součástí čipsetu.

[kavol]

Na tom není nic vtipného, to je prostě fakt.

hm, a to má být jako v rozporu?

- znáš pořady ve stylu "Neváhej a toč"? ... že je fakt, když někdo dostal před kamerou do koulí, jako brání tomu, aby se tam diváci váleli smíchy?

Dražší asi nebude, vždyť FW je běžné i na deskách za 1500,-Kč. ... FW rozhraní je takřka bez výjimky řešené dodatečným broukem lípnutým na PCI namísto, aby bylo samozřejmou součástí čipsetu.

hm, takže řešení samostatným broukem je stejně drahé jako řešení v rámci jiného chipsetu?

... jinak nevím jak je to teď, ale dříve se za implementaci FW vybíraly patentové poplatky $0,25 na port, zatímco za USB ne

[Ctirad Feřtr]

Stále nechápu. Napsal jsem, že USB není dobrý nápad pro multikanálové audio a rozumnější volba je firewire. Dále jsem napsal, že kormě firewire se dělají i profi karty do cardbusu, což je defacto PCI se všemi jeho výhodami. Nevidím v tom nic nepravdivého, kontroverzního nebo dokonce vtipného. Ale už to nehodlám dál rozmazávat. Všichni kromě tebe to zjevně pochpili hned napoprvé ;)

Co se FW týče, s těmi licencemi je to možné. Ale opakuji, že FW (tříportový TI, což je nejlepší existující implementace na trhu) je běžné i na lowendových deskách, tudíž cena asi není hlavní problém, spíš marketing tlačící konkurenční USB. Uvidíme, jak to bude vypadat po příchodu USB3.

[kavol]

ano, nechápeš - popírám snad někde cokoliv z toho, co jsi řekl o vztahu USB-FW-CardBus? ... já myslím, že ne, takže reakce "nevidím v tom nic nepravdivého" je totálně mimo

mě pouze přišel vtipný ten kontext, ve kterém jsi to řekl; tobě ne, ok, vkus se různí - prosím přijmi to jako fakt a nehledej v tom neustále, že bych snad tvůj názor na tuto problematiku napadal, ok?

co se týče USB3, já si myslím, že teď je nejlepší příležitost chopit se FireWire - specifikace 1394c už je na světě, USB3 je v nedohlednu, hardwarově nesrovnatelné ... ale obávám se, že marketingově se to zase projede na plné čáře, neb za tím nestojí Wintel

jinak co se týče ceny ... jasně, pro zákazníka není rozdíl, jestli si koupí desku za 1490 Kč nebo za 1500 Kč, ale pokud jde o výrobu ve statisícových sériích, a nějaký managór si spočte, že na milionu kusů ušetří půl milionu dolarů, tak prostě rozhodne, že se FireWire podporovat nebude (stejně jako spočte, že se nevyplatí vyrábět desku bez integrované zvukovky, atd.) ... a rozhodně mi nepřijde, že by FW bylo běžné i na lowendových deskách; teď jsem si projel 20 nejlevnějších u Alfacompu, a ani jedna FW neměla, zato všechny měly 8*USB2

[Ctirad Feřtr]

Každá deska FW nemá (on ho popravdě taky každý nepotřebuje. Na polohovacá zařízení nebo jednorázový přesun dat je USB2 dostatečné), ale rozhodně nehrozí, žeby FW bylo jenom výsadou nejdražších desek pro ladiče. Stačí se podívat třeba k Asusu nebo Gigabyte.

Co se týče budoucnosti, tak bych si na nějaké inovované FW nevsadil. To spíš právě to USB3. Nakonec to možná ale bude úplně jinak a pro aplikace kritické na propustnost a nízkou latenci vyhraje externí PCIe.

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Diky za clanek...

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[frEon]

Aktuálně poslední verze Ardouru 2.0.5 bohužel zatím nedisponuje MIDI sekvencerem, tudíž můžete zapomenout i na využívání v současnosti velmi populárních virtuálních instrumentů.

tudiz muzete zapomenout v soucasnosti na vyuzivani jeste popularnejsich hardwarovych instrumentu (ruzny syntaky, samplery apod...)

[Ctirad Feřtr]

Zapomenut nemusí na nic. Stačí použít jinou aplikaci synchronizovanou přes jack. Ostatně málokdy jde proces skládání paralelně s procesem míchání.

[frEon]

no vetsinou je to delany tak, ze pocitac pres midi rozhrani ovlada krabice, ktery maj vlastni vystupy, ktery se poslou do opravdickyho mixaku, kde se to vsechno micha a vystup z nej se pak nahrava zas do pocitace.

jestli to midi de nahradit necim z tretim tak beru svou pripominku zpet

[Ctirad Feřtr]

no vetsinou je to delany tak, ze pocitac pres midi rozhrani ovlada krabice, ktery maj vlastni vystupy, ktery se poslou do opravdickyho mixaku, kde se to vsechno micha a vystup z nej se pak nahrava zas do pocitace.

No popravdě s takovýmhle postupem se člověk dneska asi moc nesetká. Ono by ani nemělo moc velký smysl tlačit do počítače už hotový mix a připravovat se tak o výhody DAW řešení. Pravděpodobnější spíš bude, že to nejdřív někdo složí a udělá si základy v sekvenceru (pod linuxem třeba Muse nebo Rosegarden), pak se to natlačí do mnoha diskrétních audiostop v DAW, dohrají další stopy (jsou-li nějaké) s živými nástroji, vokály apod. a následně se to smíchá (což zase může dělat někdo úplně jiný v jiném studiu na jiném HW a SW) do výsledné stereostopy, případě nějakého multikanálu. Ten se potom zmasteruje (více či méně jemá finalizace výsledného zvuku) a opatří náležitostmi pro výsledný nosič.

Všechny tyhle kroky a etapy se dají s větším či menším komfortem udělat i v Linuxu a specielně Ardour je plně srovnatelný se světovou komerční špičkou.

[spam]

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[Xeelee]

A neexistovalo by něco jako Virtual DJ pro Linux?

http://www.virtualdj.com/products/virtualdj/screenshot.html

[s0]

zkoušel jsem (čti: nainstaloval a spustil, prohnal tím 2-3 soubory a nechal to být) akorát:

http://mixxx.sourceforge.net/

http://terminatorx.org/

jo, fungujou. Ale obecně nechápu, k čemu jsou všechny tyhle věci bez bustru a kytary dobré ;)

[Xeelee]

Virtual DJ slouží jako náhrada DJ mixážního pultu se dvěma gramofony a obsahuje spoustu efektů (scratchování apod.), narozdíl od Mixxxu, ke kterému se mixážní pult musí připojit. Druhý program neznám a nezkoušel jsem ho, ale podle screenshotů to také není to co hledám.

[Xóža Hňabaj]

To je samozrejme blbost. Mixxx ma vsechno co clovek potrebuje k hrani i bez mixazniho pultu. Samozrejme externi hardware v mnohem ulehci praci. (I kdyz stabilita mixxx je..ehm...diskutabilni :)

[Xeelee]

Mixxx jsem si asi před čtvrt rokem nainstaloval, ale jak se s ním dá pracovat bez mixážních pultů jsem nezjistil. Ty jsi to zkoušel? Pokud ano mohl by ses se mnou podělit o tvoje zkušenosti pls?

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I appreciate the tip about using Shift+E to display the saber—makes editing much smoother. And if you're looking for reliable tree services, our website is always open! Tree Surgeon Near Me

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I appreciate the tip about using Shift + mouse wheel to adjust track size—super helpful! And if you're looking for reliable roofing services, don’t hesitate to visit our website. Roofer Whitstable

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Thanks for sharing this! It’s great to see how Ardour’s interface evolved with the GTK+2 update. If you ever need quality roofing services, feel free to visit our site! Pitched | Gable Roofs Beaconsfield

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This was a great read! I like how you pointed out the pros and cons of not having a built-in EQ. If you happen to need quality roofing services, we’d be glad to help — visit our site! Hipped Roof Great Missenden

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Interesting comparison with Pro Tools — I agree, the range seems more than enough for most users. By the way, if you’re looking for reliable tree care services, you can check out our website. Domestic & Commercial Tree Care

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Thanks for sharing this update about Ardour’s MIDI progress! It’s good to know improvements are on the way. If you ever need professional tree services, feel free to visit our site. Domestic & Commercial Tree Care

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Great insight into Ardour’s progress—Linux audio has truly come a long way! Thanks for sharing this update. If you ever need reliable driveway services, feel free to check out our site. Driveway Contractor Near Me

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I enjoyed learning about how Ardour is shaping the future of audio on Linux. Kudos to the developers for their hard work! By the way, if you need professional fencing services, feel free to visit our website. Feather Edge Fencing

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Great insight—thank you for sharing this! I can totally relate to the struggle of rebooting just to enjoy music. If you happen to need any roofing services, feel free to visit our site!Slate Roof

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Appreciate this honest review — the missing MIDI sequencer and plugin issues sound like real dealbreakers for some. By the way, if you ever need roofing services, you’re welcome to visit our site. Lead Flashing

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[MHIEYO]

Thank you for sharing this tip — it’s really helpful to know that even without a WYSIWYG editor, you can quickly format text by using blank lines to create paragraphs. Understanding how the system interprets P and BR tags makes managing content much easier. If you ever happen to need a professional tree surgeon, feel free to visit our site anytime. Tree Felling Watton

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[mhieyo]

Thank you for sharing this clear and detailed explanation — it really highlights how thoughtfully the mixer window is laid out. I appreciate how each section follows the true signal path, just like on an analog desk. The breakdown of inserts, sends, plugins, and the pre- and post-fader options makes the workflow easy to understand, even for someone jumping between different DAWs.

It’s interesting that the developers decided not to include a built-in EQ and instead rely entirely on plugins. As you said, it has its pros and cons — flexibility on one hand, but a missing convenience on the other compared to many competing DAWs. Still, the overall structure sounds very functional and user-friendly.

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[mhieyo]

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[včera 14:06 Vivian]

Thanks for explaining how the Editor window works. The timeline setup makes things so much clearer. If you ever need tree services, feel free to visit our site! Best Arborist

[včera 14:08 Matet]

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